Curse

Martin Alvito · Jan 23, 2012, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Isn't that right on the verge of syncing? Gathering all the players you like to play with in one dist so you have a better chance to group with them.

Which illustrates the futility of criminalizing the activity. ID1 evolved as the focal point for better players without anyone having to advertise it. If you were looking for skilled groups, and you brought enough to the table that skilled players wouldn't ragequit on you, it simply made sense to go there.

Grind and randomization rarely mix. Let's be honest: by randomizing the task (thus slowing completion), the devs are acting as time bandits. Players will want to repatriate their time, and the more creative ones will find ways if there is any possibility of tipping the odds in a player's favor.

Lucci_Slevin · Jan 24, 2012, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Just wanted to comment that AB was extremely busy and fun all weekend due to the double points event. Thanks to all who came. Good times.

Thumbs up for double AB points all day erryday!

Missing HB · Jan 24, 2012, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucci_Slevin

Just wanted to comment that AB was extremely busy and fun all weekend due to the double points event.

I didn't really find it fun to be honest, most fights i saw took place either in kurzic castle, either in luxon one and most fights were about running around with people having no tactics( i once decided to go waste our opponents time to make us cap a shrine more than them and i still got kicked for not staying with team)..

So sure,it was fun to play with friends though, but however i generally found it a bit boring and not relying enough on tactics..

DiogoSilva · Jan 24, 2012, 11:15 AM // 11:15

^I, meanwhile, absolutely loved AB this weekend. Was consistently in good parties (even when the others with us weren't as good), and playing JQ over AB the last months made me forget how AB sometimes becomes an organized RA, when teams have to meet up for a capping point. Was so satisfying.

And 4 districts worth of people! If that isn't any indication that people DO want to play AB when the rewards ARE worth it, I don't know what it is. Devs should take some attention to upping the numbers for this format, IMO.

JONO51 · Jan 24, 2012, 12:03 PM // 12:03

I think AB is pretty good as long as you lead (and know what you are doing). Too may people randomly add others and don't know how to separate the good from the bad after a match and get rid of people who contribute nothing. Running as Monk helps too i find, if I go frontline pug monks will never folow common sense (e.g. pre-prot when necessary). They also have a tendency to run off and not know when is the right time to defend.

Fluffy Kittens · Jan 24, 2012, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by JONO51

Too may people randomly add others and don't know how to separate the good from the bad after a match and get rid of people who contribute nothing.

That is exactly why I stopped playing AB. Because of elitists like this. No one there wants to help the new players, they just get rid of them.

urania · Jan 24, 2012, 03:25 PM // 15:25

new=/=scrubs=/=stupid.
you sound like one of them carebears. honestly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Well, that makes short work of your own arguments. Ploink.

See, that's how you wind up playing all alone, or with a handful of histrionics worshipping your narcissistic self.

stop victimizing yourself, it reeks of hypocrisy.

a small advice for the future. when you read my posts, read them with care, because i was criticising this so-called 'ingenuity' aka 'creativity' aka the irresistible urge to be 'unique' that can be found everywhere but with NEW PLAYERS.
and do you REALLY need to have everything handed to you on a silver plate?

new players cannot be 'original' because they don't even know what the meta is. i am actually VERY nubie-friendly and gladly explain things in details IF ASKED, and if i actually come across that extremely rare type of player that actually wants to know more about pvp and learn new things, but:
1) no one asks anymore, they just complain like you do;
2) instead of asking they call you pvx meta copy /rolleyes;
3) there's no new players, there are only scrubs left and a handful of veterans trying to avoid getting headache when dealing with them;
4) ppl have close to no common sense now, so RA and esp AB tend to be overwhelming for many (apparently it's hard to avoid a mob of 2 teams in AB, because feeding them free 4 kills is clearly the better option);
5) i havent been asked anything pvp related in years. yes, years. clearly RA peeps are a god's gift to that shit hole - every single one of them. bless us.

DiogoSilva · Jan 24, 2012, 03:29 PM // 15:29

^But unlike HA, it's very easy to prevent that. The basics for AB is to follow your team, and to play any 4vs4 encounters like you would with RA. There's also no rank descrimination, so you always get more chances to play and gain experience, and it's also very easy to form your own team.

Anything else, just ask at the outpost, and somebody's bound to tell, unless you happen to be unlucky and you're at dead hours with only one elitist team waiting for the timer. :P

drkn · Jan 24, 2012, 05:42 PM // 17:42

I see Urania is aspiring to become a politician.

Quote:

new players cannot be 'original' because they don't even know what the meta is.

It's not the problem of 'meta', but of the perceived metagame. The perceived and generally agreed metagame is consisted of the build readily available on a handful of webpages, gwpvx being the top representative. The current mentality may be summed up as -> if you don't run something worthwhile from pvx, and if you don't follow the team knowing what you're doing all the time, then i'll kick you next time we're at the outpost.
Now, imagine a world without builds in the web. With no gwpvx or other sites holding the 'meta'. Sure, there would be good, wide played team builds, especially for GvG, based on observation, trial and error - over and over again. There would be much bigger diversity in the game, with the meta not being so stale, without 'great, everyone will be running XYZ now...' after every skill update. And not being able to get builds off pvx would, in the very beginning, scare off wanna-be PvPers who don't even want to put any effort in their game, who don't want to improve, just to reap easy rewards.
So now, imagine if you declined using/checking gwpvx every time you pug with someone. If you thought about the build as it is, and maybe tried to create a teambuild on top of a fresh idea. Something no one else will run in the upcoming match, or something that is your guild's trademark. Even now, with pvx, you might try to run something original, even if with subpar dps/hps/other statistic, simply because no one would anticipate it, and you might get both fun and wins. Maybe not as easy as you would using the pvx 'meta' builds, but still. And maybe you would lose the blinkers that limit you from playing with anything that is not 'meta'.

I actually find the most recent posts quite amusing. I always thought it was PvPers who played for 'fun' and 'competition', and used to accuse PvErs of the reward/time ratio being the most important thing for them.

Martin Alvito · Jan 24, 2012, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

I see Urania is aspiring to become a politician.

Gingrich IMO. He has valid points to be sure, but he's also a skilled devotee of the politics of divisiveness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

It's not the problem of 'meta', but of the perceived metagame. The perceived and generally agreed metagame is consisted of the build readily available on a handful of webpages, gwpvx being the top representative. The current mentality may be summed up as -> if you don't run something worthwhile from pvx, and if you don't follow the team knowing what you're doing all the time, then i'll kick you next time we're at the outpost.

Which isn't without merit. PvX defines the character of the meta, but in no way alters the incentives to kick someone who doesn't bring a worthwhile character build and doesn't follow orders.

Don't get me wrong: I'd like to see us return to an era without things like Obs and PvX, but the reality is that the cat is out of the bag and it's up to us to deal with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

I actually find the most recent posts quite amusing. I always thought it was PvPers who played for 'fun' and 'competition', and used to accuse PvErs of the reward/time ratio being the most important thing for them.

Maybe I see this a little bit differently as someone who has played both seriously, but it seems to me that the structure of rewards dictates behavior in both formats. I guarantee you that if you give out rewards on the basis of #1 overall rating rather than the winner of the mAT, top GvG builds will change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

as soon as the american player base becomes the majority, everything turns to shit anyway.

A surprisingly interesting bit of cynicism.

Essence Snow · Jan 24, 2012, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Yes PvX and the like have provided a base where ppl can at a min, say "help yourself some b4 asking for help". Yes there is a major gap in the experience of the player base. Yes there are the the attitudes which decay gameplay. Yes rewards from zc and bonus weekends increase participation. Yes if those rewards were continuous it would lead to more bots/farming. Yes bots and farming in pvp are issues. Yes the high end players play for rewards. Yes the low end players want to play for rewards. Yes the formats have be neglected. Yes the discrepencies between pvp/pve cause issues. Yes those issues are both between skills and player base. Yes the game is old. Yes the population has dwindled. Yes pvp formats suffer greater from less population than pve. Yes there is discrimination in pvp. Yes there is discrimination in pve. Yes ra is the most popular pvp format. Yes it's due to ease of entry (lol) and low set-up/prep time. Yes ab has sub par reward when compared to jq/fa. Yes maps are stagnate. Yes it is reasonable for ppl to expect to be able to play all parts of a game they paid for. Yes some players put forth more effort than others. And finally yes this rant on yes's has gone on too long.

urania · Jan 24, 2012, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Yes PvX and the like have provided a base where ppl can at a min, say "help yourself some b4 asking for help". Yes there is a major gap in the experience of the player base. Yes there are the the attitudes which decay gameplay. Yes rewards from zc and bonus weekends increase participation. Yes if those rewards were continuous it would lead to more bots/farming. Yes bots and farming in pvp are issues. Yes the high end players play for rewards. Yes the low end players want to play for rewards. Yes the formats have be neglected. Yes the discrepencies between pvp/pve cause issues. Yes those issues are both between skills and player base. Yes the game is old. Yes the population has dwindled. Yes pvp formats suffer greater from less population than pve. Yes there is discrimination in pvp. Yes there is discrimination in pve. Yes ra is the most popular pvp format. Yes it's due to ease of entry (lol) and low set-up/prep time. Yes ab has sub par reward when compared to jq/fa. Yes maps are stagnate. Yes it is reasonable for ppl to expect to be able to play all parts of a game they paid for. Yes some players put forth more effort than others. And finally yes this rant on yes's has gone on too long.

besides, the true high-end played for fun. then rewards. if at all.

cormac ap dunn · Jan 24, 2012, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

the high-end played for fun. then rewards. if at all.

The high end PLAYED for fun, then rewards, true. Now what do they play for? Fun has been missing from these formats for years. If playing the exact same teams over and over again on the same maps is fun for some, so be it. But lets be real here: "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Martin's comments typically are very commendable...Urania's and Cormac's albeit providing some valid points, I am very surprised haven't been deleted.

Yes PvX and the like have provided a base where ppl can at a min, say "help yourself some b4 asking for help". Yes there is a major gap in the experience of the player base. Yes there are the the attitudes which decay gameplay. Yes rewards from zc and bonus weekends increase participation. Yes if those rewards were continuous it would lead to more bots/farming. Yes bots and farming in pvp are issues. Yes the high end players play for rewards. Yes the low end players want to play for rewards. Yes the formats have be neglected. Yes the discrepencies between pvp/pve cause issues. Yes those issues are both between skills and player base. Yes the game is old. Yes the population has dwindled. Yes pvp formats suffer greater from less population than pve. Yes there is discrimination in pvp. Yes there is discrimination in pve. Yes ra is the most popular pvp format. Yes it's due to ease of entry (lol) and low set-up/prep time. Yes ab has sub par reward when compared to jq/fa. Yes maps are stagnate. Yes it is reasonable for ppl to expect to be able to play all parts of a game they paid for. Yes some players put forth more effort than others. And finally yes this rant on yes's has gone on too long.

Yes every single point is valid. But valid or not , what are the solutions? Thats what we are debating here.

urania · Jan 24, 2012, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by cormac ap dunn

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

your whole problem in a nutshell.

*lemming* · Jan 24, 2012, 11:46 PM // 23:46

apparently it was too hard to have a civil discussion

carry on

Lucci_Slevin · Jan 25, 2012, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiogoSilva

^I, meanwhile, absolutely loved AB this weekend. Was consistently in good parties (even when the others with us weren't as good), and playing JQ over AB the last months made me forget how AB sometimes becomes an organized RA, when teams have to meet up for a capping point. Was so satisfying.

And 4 districts worth of people! If that isn't any indication that people DO want to play AB when the rewards ARE worth it, I don't know what it is. Devs should take some attention to upping the numbers for this format, IMO.

Preach it!

I would like to add that getting some voice comms and finding a good guild/ally/group of friends makes the experience much better.

Krill · Jan 25, 2012, 03:46 AM // 03:46

AB was empty calorie fun like RA before people certain people started syncing teams, throwing the ebb and flow between probably 30/30% keys / grenz, 15/15% canyon / ancestral, and 10% saltspray way off, to like 60% the deep map and 40% the mid map. It was impossible to win if you had one decent team + two mediocre or bad teams vs. 3 synced teams, the former of which would be based locked in a few minutes.

I had a lot of casual players on my FL, some of whom I met on this forum when gladiators arena actually had SECTIONS, that would invite me to play and it was fun even if the group wasn't the greatest. However it seemed like in a matter of 3-4 months all the regulars in AB quit. Whether it was the syncing, string of ridiculous skill updates, or just general boredom who knows.

fireflyry · Jan 25, 2012, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

You spend a lot of time running instead of fighting, and the game lacks the deeper strategy derived from both sides having a single, fixed point of weakness such as the Guild Lord.

Strangely enough this is exactly the reason I used to enjoy AB.The open expanses combined with a solid IMS was good times.

Each to their own.

Sankt Hallvard · Jan 25, 2012, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

The problem with AB is that it combines the worst features of all the PvP formats. You have to form a group of four, but you're randomly paired with two other teams which are likely to be frustratingly bad. It's a cap points game, which I think most players would agree is the least entertaining game mode. You spend a lot of time running instead of fighting, and the game lacks the deeper strategy derived from both sides having a single, fixed point of weakness such as the Guild Lord. The game is almost invariably decided by wiping opposing teams, but the match usually takes ten or fifteen minutes to resolve even when one side has a clear advantage.

Ability to play with friends yet still be paired somewhat randomly is a stroke of genius in my book. It ensures more equality between sides while still rewarding skilled players and teams. It lets nubs and pros alike play on the same field and focus on what they do best.

It's a cap point game, but that in no way means you run more than you fight. If anything strategy in AB is deeper than any other pvp format. You run into scrims all the time and have to decide quickly if you can beat them, what advantages they have, if you have escape routes, if your allies are likely to come to your aid or if they will flee the fight, can you end up being sandwiched, npcs present etc. If taking dozens of decisions like this every match is void of strategy I don't know.

The match is indeed decided by wiping enemy teams, but how you do it, the speed you do it and where you pick your fights are more important than the sheer number of players you slay. All this makes for the most strategic pvp format. To avoid talking past each other just imagine if the format allowed guild teams to make teams of 12 in size. You can imagine a much more competitive format which would most definitely be decided by strategy. It would of course also be ultimately doomed as nubs would never manage to make a competitive 12-man team. Hence the genius of the 4-man team randomly paired into 12v12. AB - the misunderstood genius. RIP.

Swingline · Jan 25, 2012, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

AB was empty calorie fun like RA before people certain people started syncing teams, throwing the ebb and flow between probably 30/30% keys / grenz, 15/15% canyon / ancestral, and 10% saltspray way off, to like 60% the deep map and 40% the mid map. It was impossible to win if you had one decent team + two mediocre or bad teams vs. 3 synced teams, the former of which would be based locked in a few minutes.

Syncing will always be a problem in any GWs random format because,

a) Anet refuses to fix their flawed grouping system either because it is impossible without overhauling the programming or they just don't give a shit.

b) The GWs population for such formats is at the right place for syncers to effectively sync and reap rewards by cheating other players.

c) The live team is incompetent and keeps dishing out updates that do the exact opposite of what they were meant to do. They just write shit in notepad, think its good, then program it in. In case you didn't notice I'm referencing the strong box update.

d) Anet does not punish players taking advantage of such a flaw in the system. Most gaming companies that catch you doing this stuff will ban hammer your ass.